Bava Metzia 124

ובדינינו אין מחזירין ממלוה ללוה אמר ליה אינהו בתורת זביני אתא לידייהו

yet by our law is not restored from the creditor to the debtor?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Because it is not accounted as direct interest, since the crop may fail. ');">¹</span>

אלא כל שאילו בדיניהן דקאמר רב ספרא מאי אתא לאשמועינן הכי אתא לאשמועינן כל שאילו בדיניהן מוציאין מלוה למלוה בדינינו מחזירין ממלוה ללוה ומאי ניהו ברבית קצוצה וכדרבי אלעזר

— He replied: They [regard it] as having come into his hand by the law of purchase.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., theoretically a mortgaged field is sold to the creditor, which the debtor redeems by repaying the loan. Hence, if the debtor seizes its produce, he seizes something that belongs to the creditor by right of purchase, not as interest. ');">²</span>

כל שאילו בדיניהם אין מוציאין בדינינו אין מחזירין רבית מוקדמת רבית מאוחרת:

Then, when R. Safra said, 'Wherever by their law, etc.', what did he mean to tell us?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' To what case does this actually apply? ');">³</span>

כיצד לקח הימנו חטים בדינר זהב הכור וכן השער וכו': וכי אין לו יין מאי הוי

— [This]: 'Wherever by their law exaction is made from the debtor for the creditor, restoration is made by our law from the creditor to the debtor;' this refers to<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'and what is it?' ');">⁴</span>

והתניא אין פוסקין על הפירות עד שיצא השער יצא השער פוסקין אף על פי שאין לזה יש לזה

direct interest, and in accordance with R. Eleazar.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Supra 61b. ');">⁵</span>

אמר רבה מתניתין בבא לחוב בדמיהן עסקינן

'Wherever by their law there is no exaction from the debtor to the creditor, there is by our law no restoration from the creditor to the debtor;' this refers to prepaid and postpaid interest.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. infra 75b. Such interest is not actionable in Gentile law, and therefore, if paid, is not returnable by Jewish law. ');">⁶</span>

וכדתניא הרי שהיה נושה בחבירו מנה והלך ועמד על גורנו ואומר תן לי מעותי שאני רוצה ליקח בהם חטים אמר לו חטים יש לי שאני נותן לך צא ועשה עלי כשער של עכשיו ואני אעלה לך כל שנים עשר חדש אסור דלאו כאיסרו הבא לידו דמי

E. G., IF ONE PURCHASED WHEAT AT A GOLD <i>DENAR</i> PER <i>KOR</i>, WHICH WAS THE CURRENT PRICE etc. But what does it matter if he has no wine? Did we not learn:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Infra 72a. ');">⁷</span>

א"ל אביי אי דלא כאיסרו הבא לידו מאי איריא אין לו אפי' יש לו נמי אלא אמר אביי מתני' כדתני רב ספרא ברבית דבי רבי חייא

One must not fix a price [for produce] until the market price is known;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., A must not buy ahead from B at a fixed price, paying him now. ');">⁸</span>

דתני רב ספרא ברבית דבי ר' חייא יש דברים שהם מותרין ואסורין מפני הערמת רבית כיצד אמר לו הלויני מנה א"ל מנה אין לי חטין במנה יש לי שאני נותן לך נתן לו חטין במנה וחזר ולקחן הימנו בעשרים וארבע סלע מותר ואסור לעשות כן מפני הערמת רבית

once the market price is established, a fixed price may be agreed upon, for even if this [vendor] has no stock, another has?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., B may undertake to supply A at the current price, even if he has no produce and may have to buy it himself later for delivery at a higher price; yet since B could immediately purchase it from some other merchant, it is not interest. Why then is this forbidden in the Mishnah? ');">⁹</span>

הכא נמי כגון דאמר הלויני שלשים דינרים אמר ליה שלשים דינרים אין לי חטין בשלשים דינרים יש לי שאני נותן לך נתן לו חטין בשלשים דינרים וחזר ולקחם הימנו בדינר זהב אי אית ליה חמרא ללוה דיהיב ליה בשלשים דינר פירא הוא דקא שקיל מיניה ולית לן בה ואי לא כיון דלית ליה חמרא ודאי משקל זוזי מיניה מחזי כרבית

— Rabbah replied: Our Mishnah refers to the creating of a debt for the value thereof.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The vendor did not return to the purchaser the money he had received from him for the wheat, but indebted himself for it on the basis of the present advanced price, and undertook to supply him with wine to its value. ');">¹⁰</span>

אמר ליה רבא אי הכי תן לי חיטי דמי חיטי מבעי ליה תני דמי חיטי שאני מוכרן שמכרתים לך מבעיא ליה תני שמכרתים לך הרי חטיך עשויות עלי בשלשי' דינרין מעיקרא נמי הכי אוקמינהו עילויה הכי קאמר ליה בדמי חטיך שעשית עלי בשלשים דינר

And as it has been taught: If one was his neighbour's creditor for a <i>maneh</i>, and he went and stood at his [the debtor's] granary and demanded, 'Give me my money, as I wish to purchase wheat therewith;' to which he answered, 'I have wheat with which to supply you; go and calculate [the amount] at the current price, and I will furnish you with it, [spreading it over] the whole year,' — that is forbidden, because it is not as though the <i>issar</i><span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the payment for the wheat. ');">¹¹</span>

הרי לך אצלי בהן יין ויין אין לו והא בדינר זהב הכור וכן השער קתני אלא אמר רבא כי שכיבנא רבי אושעיא נפק לוותי

had come to his hand.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Now, had he actually received money, it would not be forbidden as interest despite the possible rise in the price, as on p. 372, n. 8, but as he receives no money, should he have to pay more later, the excess is usury; and it is likewise so in the Mishnah. ');">¹²</span> Abaye said to him: If the reason [in the Mishnah is that] it is not 'as though the <i>issar</i> had come to his hand,' why particularly [state the case] where he has no wine? Even if he has, it is also [forbidden]!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For in the Baraitha quoted, he actually has wheat, yet it is forbidden. ');">¹³</span> But, said Abaye, our Mishnah is as R. Safra learnt in the collection of Baraithas on interest of the college of R. Hiyya. For R. Safra learnt in the collection of Baraithas on interest of the college of R. Hiyya: Some things are [essentially] permitted, yet forbidden as [constituting] an evasion of usury. How so? If A requested B, 'Lend me a <i>maneh</i>;' to which he replied, 'I have no <i>maneh</i>, but wheat to the value thereof, which I will give you;' and thereupon he gave him a maneh's worth of wheat, [calculated on the current price] and repurchased it for twenty-four <i>sela's</i>;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A maneh contains 100 zuz, and a sela' = 4 zuz; hence 24 sela' = 96 zuz. The debtor, being in urgent need of the money, had to sell it for less than its real worth. ');">¹⁴</span> now, this is [essentially] permitted, yet may not be done on account of evasion of usury. So here [in the Mishnah] too: e.g., A said to B, 'Lend me thirty <i>denarii</i>,' to which he replied, 'I have not thirty <i>denarii</i>, but wheat for the same, which I can give you.' He then gave him thirty denarii's worth of wheat [calculated at the current price] and repurchased it for a gold <i>denar</i>.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., 25 denarii, so that the debtor has to make, in addition to the gold denar which he received in cash, a return for their remaining five denarii, — a total of 30 denarii. ');">¹⁵</span> Now,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' [When the creditor asks for the thirty denarii for the purpose of buying wine and the debtor offers to supply it.] ');">¹⁶</span> if the debtor has wine, which he gives him against the thirty <i>denarii</i>, he [the creditor] merely receives provisions from him, and there is no objection; but, if not, since he has no wine, to receive money certainly smacks of usury.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For the debtor actually received only 25 denarii, which the creditor paid him in cash for the wheat, whilst he repaid him 30 denarii. On this explanation, IF A MAN PURCHASED WHEAT AT A GOLD DENAR PER KOR, refers to the creditor as purchaser and the debtor as vendor. The rest of the Mishnah does not agree with this interpretation, and Raba proceeds to raise this objection. ');">¹⁷</span> Raba said to him: If so [instead of], GIVE ME MY WHEAT, the Tanna should state, 'Give me the money for my wheat'!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since the creditor had previously given the wheat to the debtor, and was now demanding payment. ');">¹⁸</span> — Read: 'the money for my wheat.' [Instead of,] AS I WISH TO SELL IT, he should state, 'Which I sold you.' Read: 'which I sold you.' THE WHEAT SHALL BE ACCOUNTED AS A DEBT TO ME OF THIRTY <i>DENARII</i> — but from the very beginning, had it not been fixed thus against him?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., this involves no new arrangement, as is implied in the Mishnah. ');">¹⁹</span> — He said thus to him, 'For the value of your wheat which you have accounted against me at thirty <i>denarii</i>, you have a claim of wine upon me', whereas he [the debtor] has no wine. But it is stated, [IF A MAN PURCHASED WHEAT] AT A GOLD <i>DENAR</i> PER <i>KOR</i>, WHICH WAS THE MARKET PRICE!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Whereas on this interpretation it is obvious that the creditor repurchased it at 25 when the current price was 30. ');">²⁰</span> But, said Raba,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The reading of R. Han. and Alfasi is: This refers to a case where he wishes to create a debt for its value, and as R. Oshaia taught; v. p. 372, n. 9. ');">²¹</span> when I die, R. Oshaia will come to meet me,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., pay honour to me in the Great Beyond. ');">²²</span>